Many Christians have wondered where the Garden of Eden is located, but we should be asking a more important question: what does Eden represent? It certainly shouldn’t be confused as a literal garden. To do so strips it of all its esoteric (inner) meaning and knowledge.
Just as Jesus made it clear that the kingdom of God was within you (a conscious experience), and not something that we can see (Luke 17:20), so it is with Eden. In order to understand this, we’re going to have to look at all the Biblical language and symbols within Eden. Once we break them down, I think you’ll discover that the true meaning of Eden becomes quite clear. I also promised I was going to discuss more about the topic of transmuting sexual energy in light of Adam and Eve. I’ve decided to push that back a post or two as it will make more sense after discussing Eden.
The two trees
Besides Adam and Eve, the two most important symbols in Eden are the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When we read about these two trees, it’s easy to miss the subtle hints telling us they aren’t really two separate trees. They’re both located in the midst of the garden, indicating two symbols representing different aspects of one totality. That totality is consciousness, that which is both immortal and eternal.
An important aspect that you must realize about consciousness is that when it is manifested it becomes dual in nature. This is why we have two separate symbols (trees, also representing man) that are both located in the midst of Eden.
Consider the scripture below:
“And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil” (Genesis: 2:9).
The tree of life
The tree of life represents the divine ray (logos, self) from the plane of consciousness before the fall of man, and the one to which we shall one day return. Again, this high plane of consciousness is symbolized by Eden. The tree of life then is the divine energy flowing from this higher conscious plane. Eden itself is an inward experience of the soul as opposed to an outward manifestation of it. Currently we experience reality through the ego and personality (outward manifestations of the soul through the lower natures). This outward manifestation of the soul through the mental, emotional, and physical natures leaves no memory of Eden. But this plane of high consciousness (Eden) can become indirectly known through the fruits of the spirit, or the higher emotions and intellect. To experience Eden we must follow Jesus’ example and crucify the lower ego.
Jesus also calls this higher state of consciousness “the tree of life.”
“…To him that overcometh (the lower egoic nature) will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God” (Rev. 2:7).
The tree of knowledge of good and evil
The tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is also in the midst of the garden, represents the evolving moral nature we all develop as the result of our experiences on earth. It represents consciousness manifested through duality, and to eat of the tree of knowledge means to experience through the lower natures (mental, emotional, and physical) so we can raise the spiritual man from the experiences of the natural man. As Paul states, first in the natural and then the spiritual. This is a universal law within the unfolding of consciousness.
Therefore it is easy to see that both symbols are really two separate sides of the same coin, consciousness itself. Whereas one represents a higher conscious experience, the other represents the lower conscious experience through the personality and our physical bodies (the outward expression of consciousness through our thoughts, emotions, and physical senses).
Food on the trees
The food that was good to the eyes spoken of in the scripture above represents the spiritual truths we gain through our experiences within the physical realm. They don’t represent literal apples and oranges, but food for the soul, which are always truths assimilated into the soul. The more of this soul-food we eat, the more the illusion of duality fades, and the more real is incorporated into consciousness. The spiritual man is the real and the abiding nature, whereas the lower man/nature is illusory and dissolves after each reincarnated cycle.
Can we find evidence of such an interpretation in other scriptures? Yes. Acts 14:17 states:
“Nevertheless he (God) left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain (truth) from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food (truth) and gladness.”
As we eat the food of the tree of knowledge of good and evil through the many experiences of life, we eventually work our way up to higher consciousness and Eden again.
Adam and Eve
After discussing what the two trees represent, it should make sense why man (Adam and Eve) ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This act symbolically represents the “fall of man,” or the fall of the soul into physical manifestation, complete with a human ego and personality. Since the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents the evolving moral nature through experience, logically Adam and Eve would eventually “eat” of it.
The symbolic truths above make sense out of a story that is riddled with problems when viewed literally. For example, why would God place the bad tree (tree of knowledge) in the midst of the garden alongside tree of life to tempt man in the first place?
Wouldn’t you want your children to have knowledge of good and evil anyways? This is all gained through experience in life!
This is also why Adam and Eve must work among thorns and thistles (experience in the physical world) to produce food. It’s all about the spiritual food, the truths needed for the progression and evolution of the soul. Furthermore, this toiling among thorns and thistles can be likened to man’s responsibility to follow Jesus’ example of crucifying the ego and coming to express higher consciousness so that we can return to Eden or Paradise.
It should be obvious that Adam and Eve weren’t literal people. Over a year ago, I wrote an article explaining that Adam and Eve represent the conscious and subconscious. Originally these two aspects of consciousness were one, just as Eve was within Adam. In a sense they still are; the waking conscious and the subconscious are actually ONE consciousness, but it is convenient for us to make this distinction to describe the dual nature of consciousness when it is manifested in the lower planes.
The scripture states that Eve became the mother of all living. Eve, as the subconscious, is the power behind manifesting creation. This is true in our own lives because we perceive reality through the influences of the subconscious. In a sense this creates our reality. But the waking conscious (Adam) is the rudder that is meant to steer the power of the subconscious. Therefore, the waking conscious, must rule over the women (subconscious), to produce the right fruit. This is the power of choice to develop the moral character which eventually leads to higher consciousness and Eden again. As we learn spiritual truths through our experience in the physical realm we begin to reprogram the subconscious, bringing us closer to the mystical and divine marriage where we balance the opposing energies (Adam and Eve) within us.
The serpent in the garden
The serpent mentioned in Eden wasn’t Satan, an evil being that helped mankind fall. In former articles, Anny has given us some deep insight into the meaning of the serpent. She dissects him through symbolism and numerology, and she is absolutely right when she concludes that he is the downward force that begins the process of awakening in us. She also mentions that at its lowest point, this force begins to move upwards as the Christ within.
We could just as easily say that the serpent represents dual forces of a higher and a lower nature. These dual forces are the desire-nature and the wisdom-nature inherit in the totality of consciousness, both of which are at work when the soul is manifested. The wisdom nature comes down to us through the higher planes and the tree of life, whereas the desire-nature is at work through the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the ego on the lower planes. Both are needed to complete our spiritual evolution. Thus the tempting of Eve by the serpent was a logical progression of the story in Genesis, not a turn of events where man disobeyed God. It’s symbolic of the necessity for mankind to evolve spiritually through the physical plane where the soul manifests an ego through the mental, emotional, and physical nature. As the famous Italian poet Dante once stated:
“The path to paradise begins in hell.”
Many of the ancients considered the manifestation of consciousness on the physical plane as the experience of hell. The physical body was the tomb from which the soul must arise. In the Gnostic teachings this is what the resurrection of the dead means. It’s not something that will come to us in the next life, but something we accomplish before we die.
In conclusion it is clear that Eden is synonymous with heaven and paradise. It is a plane of existence above the physical, astral, and mental planes. In some esoteric literature it is known as the Buddhic plane. Whatever we choose to call it, it’s all the same.
Soon I still plan to address the topic of transmuting sexual energy in light of Adam and Eve. I think it’s too important of a topic not to discuss. In the next few posts Anny will explain more about the meaning of the serpent, and other contributors are going to give insight in to developing the Christ within through meditation and other avenues. I am also looking forward to another article from Paul soon. 2014 promises to be an exciting year for Spirit of the Scripture. It seems others with esoteric knowledge are coming forward to share their insight. I hope it’s a trend that will continue.
Blessings!
Joshua, this is an incredible article, especially for me in light of my two videos on Biblical Hellfire (you will be astonished when you look at those). I think we come to the same destination, but from two different directions, which amazes me and confirms that we can indeed reach the same conclusions from differing points of view. I see the two trees as dual manifestations of the tongue, and of course, it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks. And so representations of consciousness make a lot of sense to me. “Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind (heart).” I believe the Apostle Paul to be a symbol of raised consciousness — as one who ultimately comes to see God for himself.
This is fascinating!! Thanks.
Paul,
I appreciate the comment. It’s amazing how we both come to the same conclusions through a slightly different avenue.
I also love your comment about Paul. He is definitely a symbol of raised consciousness who births the Christ within. His Epistles were written before the Gospel accounts (as all Biblical scholars agree), and his Christ is much different than what mainstream Christianity realizes.
Blessings!
wow,wow wow- am so humbled to land on this website. I was but reading my bible -book of Genesis but this time i wanted to read and get definition of terms . Getting the DEFINITION OF EDEN WAS MY FIRST ASSIGNMENT. To my surprise i get a comprehensive explanation to the meaning how its symbolically used, aah!!!!! am so happy to get such a great revelation . GOD BLESS YOU
Hi Josh,
This is a great article. I love it. I still remember when I tumbled to the fact that the two trees had to be one and hardly daring to believe it. And then I discovered that I was not the only one who had come to that conclusion which made it possible for me to trust my intuition more afterwards. It is just one great journey of discovery together.
Anny
Anny,
I had the same epiphany one night reading Genesis over again. It had been staring me in the face all along, but when I was under mainstream Christianity I would never even have considered it. It is sort of like the pronoun usage for Christ in the New Testament. We take it for granted through modern translations that those pronouns do not have to mean “he” or “him.” Translators took statements about the Christ and made them about “someone else” personally instead of realizing they were speaking of the personal Christ WITHIN us!
Hi Brethren in Christed Self,
I wonder what at all is happening! For about a year now, any time my mind contemplate a biblical issue, the revelation, solution or material needed for the truth appear to me. In Genesis there were two voices that tempted Eve’s evolution. thus; the voice that said you shall die and that which said ye shall not die but surely your eyes will be opened to be like God. Now the question is which of the voices lied and which said the truth? In Genesis 3:22 “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever” the Serpent is the eye opener.
I agree with Josh saying, the Serpent is not Satan, and even if “Satan”, it’s a necessary spiritual force/energy of our essential core existence that leads to the highest consciousness of being / God. Now, could that be the force/energy of kundalini that was cursed to coil down the base of the spine? please i need comments on this . Thanks.
Bernhardt, in a sense both were true. Man has died spiritually (not physically) since the fall. We have lost the ability to KNOW who we really are, but that can change.
Our eyes are also opened because as we experience in duality we learn good from evil. However, the way we were once taught to think about Good and Evil is not entirely correct. Its more about positive and negative experiences.
And yes, kundalini is all a big part in this force. Remember, kundalini is said to lied coiled at the base of the spine like a serpent.
bernhardt was looking over what you said about eve’s evolution.could maybe the 2 voices you hear from the serpent are the voices of the ida and pingata ?? you know one is electric and the other is magnetic and they send the message back up the spine the tree of life .to the eye the pineal gland to see ..other words how could they see out ward this was the reason for the fall .just thought i would throw that out there..peace love and light..
sorry josh meant this for bernhardt about the serpent..
Insightful and inspiring. It is all starting to fall into place. Thank you
Glad the article had meaning to you, Adrianne.
Really like this artilce!
Comment:
But the waking conscious (Adam) is the rudder that is meant to steer the power of the subconscious. True but
I think the waking conscious of man now is still deceived as to what is good or evil and can’t
guide the subsciousness?
Only by renewing our minds to the true meanings of scripture that’s normal NOT taught[ only the literal meaning ] that’s kill christianity.
So, thanks for your calling to this work!
Alvin,
Yes, you are right, reading the scriptures and acquiring esoteric knowledge is only part of the calling. Going into our prayer closest and spending time in daily meditation and prayer also has to be part of our life, which will guide the conscious mind.
Eden =a state of unspeakable joy. Jesus endured the cross for the joy that was set before Him and us as well. The joy of Oneness with all that is. Christ is not divided. The glory we had before the world (system of duality)was.
The book of Revelations talks about the the serpent becoming the dragon. How?
Tony,
Yes, in Revelations 12:3 and 4 appears the great red dragon. This dragon symbolizes the opposite of the Self as consciousness manifests. The opposite of the true self is the transitory personality consisting of the lower mental qualities and desire.
Thank you Josh, good article. It is interesting how we can analyze Bible in a different ways and give richer and deeper meanings.
Scott Peck MD calls this as multidimensional and paradoxical and I agree with him.
I find the core of the entire Bible to be unconditional Love and all the Biblical stories have to be with the message about Love. As in 1 John we read God is Love.
A few observations: God asking children not to eat certain things, knowing Children by nature are curious and love to adventure ?
Are there any healthy children who always obey their parents ?
God did not know they would not eat it ? Once freedom was given, didn’t God know it would be risky, that people also do some evil things ?
If God were to be serious of clearly defining good and evil , don’t you think he would have two separate trees, one for good and one for evil or SIN ?
I find the story of the Garden is a drama, purposely acted to let human beings taste both good and evil in full FREEDOM, because only in freedom Love is manifested.
KT,
Yes, I think your line of reasoning is correct. We aren’t to be robots made to love, right? And I do think that all children must disobey to learn this principle. Most children who remain obedient and out of the spotlight usually go through a traumatic experience at some point latter in life that makes them reevaluate everything. Those who are honest must look deep within themselves and question everything they have been taught, while those who deny the situation and refuse to look deeper for a root cause don’t grow the level that the have the potential for. But that’s what reincarnation is for.
Joshua, I told you I was on it. That makes sense and I understand it. I can get your point of not literal. I have sent a ghost to the light.
It does make much more sense Cherie when we are able to look to the deeper meaning of the story. Thanks for your comment.
really enjoyed your theme on the garden of eden.but when you talk about adam and eve being the conscious and subconsciousness minds .could it also be that if you take an ion out of atom you get positive and negative charge..could you explain a little of what i see in the garden..and i know the book is also about light…i also see the speed of light hidden in the book..ty enjoyed your thoughts..
James,
Absolutely. This is true on another level, and all these levels are connected. I believe Bill Donahue teaches the same thing you are proposing. Good his name and the Bible if you haven’t already.
Thanks for your comment.
josh have you ever heard of a guy from down under called santos bonacci..mr asrtotheology..santos is very gifted learned a lot about the body from him ..keep on planting the seeds that you have given now i have to water them..ty so much for your insights..pace love and light
ty for returning my e-mail ..yes i do know of bill donahue ..very gifted man learned a kot from bill ..keep up the good work tho..
by the way you were right about paul ..he said don not teach the law or the letter what he called it the letter kills,but the spirit gives life..
I look forward to your writings on the serpent and the transmutation of sexual energy. I first encountered these ideas on Youtube in the video: Sex – The Secret Gate to Eden. Since reading the ideas of Samuel Aun Weor and others, I have been working to conserve or not spill the “water of life.”
Justin, Sameul Weor makes some interesting points, some of which I believe. But I don’t believe in his overall premise. Transmutting sexual energy, for me, is more about integrating it properly not abstaining.
I couldn’t agree more. We are to train ourselves to “make love” in a true state of love. Not to surpress this light, but to learn how to control it through truly loving another and expressing it with an attitude (spirit) of real love ❤️
I like this interpretation of the story. But what about the Bible pointing out that the serpent was lucifer in disguise? Also.. if the serpent is representative of the devil.. Then Why does the serpent energy rule all new age spirituality. It’s easy why people would not accept this based off of what the actual texts say. Can u explain any further on this?
Justin,
Satan represents ignorance. The serpent, an active force, can also include ignorance.
As a non-dualist and one who understands how the mind works myself, I’m right there with you. Excellent insight into the Adam and Eve story by the way! I read the whole article. But to your question: “Why would God place the bad tree (tree of knowledge) in the midst of the garden alongside tree of life to tempt man in the first place?”
Allow me to challenge your thought with this: What better way for Satan to become god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4) than to play mind games with God’s clone in hopes to win him over? The tree had to be there in order for Satan (serpent) to reach for his dream of being “God” (Isaiah 14:12-14) over the true God’s footstool (Earth). Make sense? Maybe God put it there for Satan and not man.
You and your friend Anny don’t believe the serpent was Satan, but that’s where I differ.
Nick, thanks for your comment. Why do you say I don’t believe Satan was the serpent. In a sense, as your comments suggest, they are one in the same. I believe what we should distinguish is that Satan is the force of ignorance, while the serpent represents growth. That can also come through ignorance.
Aloha Joshua!
Thanks for these great article! Plenty of ‘food for thought’! As this is your first article I’ve read, please forgive if my following comment is ignorant of further wisdom you have shared over the years.
Nick probably thinks, as do I, that you don’t believe the serpent was Satan because of what you wrote in the article, under the paragraph heading “The serpent in the garden”.
Your first sentence in that section is:
“The serpent mentioned in Eden wasn’t Satan….”
I won’t claim to be any kind of expert on the subject, but after years of contemplative meditation, and studying the ACIM and the newer “A Course of Love”, I have come to have the notion that “fall” of mankind came about as a ‘mistake’ – We, the Sons and Daughters of God, existing in an infinite Universe, “stumbled upon” the thought that We could be separate(d) from God.
Having watched my last dog discover pain and therefore fear as a puppy (which changed her completely), I wonder if the same didn’t happen to Us – that the thought of separation “freaked” Us out so completely that we ‘forgot’ to “let go” of that thought, and as a result, began to make an ‘overlay’ on Reality that reflected this belief in the possibility of separation to the extent that separation BECAME Our apparent ‘reality’.
As a blossoming non-dualist myself, like Nick, the “fall” I see as being the appearance of duality (beginning with the original Unity/disunity) – but I do NOT feel that the “fall” was inevitable, and Our needing to re-member God’s Truth, and return Home after learning all of the lesson’s of dualistic Life, an intentional part of Creation by God. In fact, Jesus in ACOL states that learning actually is NOT necessary – but that since we have chosen to learn so much and become engaged in separation (duality) that now, since a new choice seems to be beyond our ability, We have to UNlearn all our “lessons of Life”!
Along those lines, I see the “Garden of Eden” as what We first created in form, while Our memories of Heaven were still strong. However, being part of duality (as revealed by the numerous sets of dualism you well described in this article), the Garden itself was possibly the doorway to either Union (the Tree of Life) or separation (the Tree of Knowledge) – a kind of Purgatory location.
Now, if we consider that the myth of a rebellious angel is true, and peruse the possibility that angel would desire to usurp God in power, that angel could only do so by seizing control of the “duality matrix” and convincing those of Us who now believed in separation that knowledge was the “key” to achieving omnipotence in this new ‘realm’.
Seems to me, the perfect place to gain ‘new recruits’ to his new world would be to hang out where souls came to make their choice.
As part of the “Rebel Angel’s” plan for power, further consider what better way for him to control his new members than to play upon our memories of God, announce himself as “god”, and command us??
This has been the only sensible notion I have had as to how “the god” of the Old Testament (Jehovah) is soooooo different from the God that Christ Jesus speaks of – in other words, Jehovah/Yahweh is actually “Satan”(the Master Ego) in disguise.
As a closing thought, are you aware of how many indigenous religions have a “Keeper of Knowledge” that appear to the followers as a serpent?? It’s amazing….
Kailasa,
Thanks for sharing this comment. You have some great ideas here. I tend to think the fall was automatic, as it tells about the natural progression of consciousness, but I will admit that I am not positive about this.
And yes, it is amazing how many ancient cultures used the serpent of the symbol. Further proof the Biblical account wasn’t meant to be taken literally. Thanks again!
Then is this is the theory, can you explain the lineage of how Yeshua the Messiac was born and traced back to be the see of King David, the Son of Adam??
Thanks much.
Christinaq, I don’t think that genealogy is meant to be literal. It was written to be symbolic.
Oh my word!
Thankyou so much to the writer of this article. This has ABSOLUTELY blown my mind. Just incredible. I have recently .. just over the last few months.. .made the huge transition from being completely non-religious (to the point of being fairly critical of christianity) to a believer when I was touched by the holy spirit. I was cured of a serious illness and just couldn’t ignore the evidence. I am now learning about jesus and being a big thinker as well as a very scientific and political person, I am keen to learn every angle and every detail of the bible and all the religions that exist too. I am a thinker and I need to explore everything to feel safe I’m not going crazy! This has been a big shift in my personality and difficult for me to process with some big ups and downs in a short space of time. The holy spirit has visited me twice now and this interpretaion makes so much sense to me.
Wow.
and thankyou . looking forward to reading more interpretations from you.
Buddahic? The LORD GOD was with them in ‘The GardeN’..do we neglect that Jesus was Crucified for the Salvation of they whom would we receive Him..or are we drawing conclusion from ‘the fruit of deception’..based on ‘self’ still? Is there any FORGIVENESS back to Adam in any of this from The Source that is outside all of Us who is Perfectly Pure and Holy and instead ‘save ourselves’ and become our own saviour? If that is the case..there’s no point to the story in the first place.
Sorry, Steven, but I think you have missed the entire point of the article. Was Jesus literal? Basically you are asking me to explain myself as if I believe another aspect of the scripture is literal where the other is not. But this is not the case.
Well, I mean, if He wasn’t, how do you explain this: “Romans 10:8-13 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
So it seems to me like all this other stuff about trying to “obtain higher consciousness through suffering” is pretty pointless in terms of obtaining salvation and going to Heaven, and even if the Garden of Eden is not literal and is *only* metaphorical, there is an absolute need for salvation through Christ and His sacrifice, and ONLY His sacrifice.
Oh, and if you’re looking for actual historical evidence, here’s a website founded by an atheist for atheists on the fact that yes, Jesus did exist: https://historyforatheists.com/jesus-mythicism/
So, are you suggesting that the Garden of Eden was a metaphor for the separation of our conscious/subconscious into the physical plane, and not an actual place? Or do you think it was a place where these events occurred? It seems to me that the case for Adam and Eve representing consciousness is a little tricky to understand and would’ve taken a while to occur. If the garden is symbolic, which I believe evidence strongly suggests (at least for what was contained in the said garden), where do the other details in the story (Cheribum guarding the entrance, and all the physical details that support it being an actual, physical place) fit in with your argument? Essentially, what I am asking for is clarification on how the philosophical aspects of this representation connect to the physical evidence for the garden. There seem to be some holes or missing pieces in this explanation that I can’t seem to wrap my head around.
Also, what do you think about the forbidden fruit having some sexual representation?
Thanks for such an engaging, thoughtful perspective! I’m a college student and I enjoy being able to study different perspectives that continue to help me on my journey to understand the Bible and its meanings.
M-KING…
Absolutely the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for the separation of consciousness. More accurately, it is the place where the consciousness was one before that separation, when cast out. There never was a physical garden except for the physical life itself, as our only evidence. The other details such as the cheribum have all been explained on this blog. If you use the search bar with key words you will be directed to them.
Blessing my friend.
Ok, if the garden of eden story is a metaphor, where does the metaphor stop are reality begin or is the whole Bible a metaphor and we need someone like you to interpret it for the rest of us who just don’t understand?
In Gen 1:1 it says that God created the heavens and the earth. When I walk outside my front door and look around I see a literal earth. When I look up into the sky above me I see stars and galaxies and the rest of the universe, and it is not a metaphor. In the story it talks about God making all the animals. When I look in nature, animals abound, they are real and not a metaphor. Hey, everywhere I look, mankind is all over the earth and I can touch them and talk to them.
So I’m really confused about all the metaphor stuff because it sounds like a lot of bologna to me…could you help me please?
Thanks.
I quote from above in your article, “It should be obvious that Adam and Eve weren’t literal people.”
Joshua. are you a real person? If so, where did you come from? If your answer is your parents, where did they come from? If your answer is their parents, your grand parents, where did they come from? If I traced you ancestry as far back as I could go, where would that end?
If I did the same for myself, where would that end? Due the limit of historical records I’ve only been able to go back to my great great grandfather who was born in South Carolina in 1820.
When i trace my lineage through my mother I’m able to get back into the 1300’s through my grandmother who was born in Scotland.
But I’m sure my lineage goes back much further…like all the way to Noah…and then back further to Adam and Eve, because they were real people who lived in a real garden.
Can you prove otherwise…were you there when God created the heavens and earth? I wasn’t there but I have proof that it happened…I’m here and so are the heavens and earth and all the animals and fishes of the sea. Where did they come from if there was not garden of Eden and earth?
Jack…
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I completely understand your apprehension, so let me clear a few things up.
First off, no, you don’t need me to interpret anything for you. In fact, it should be the goal of someone to learn how the BIble is written with metaphor so they can interpret all of it themselves. In addition, the Bible is in a sense is like a living document, as we are, so it will speak to you differently at different points in your life.
Second, you’re having trouble you say with it not being literal because God created the animals that you can go out and talk to. But Jack, let’s be honest. It’s not so black and white. Snakes don’t literally talk, do they? At any day of the week that you wake up and go outside and see a snake you will know that it’s not possible. So we cannot use the argument that because the Bible says so, it happened because it’s like that today. I could give hundreds of other examples in Eden, but I think you get the point.
Thirdly, to interpret the Bible literally actually TAKES AWAY from the true message. When the symbols are understood, based on ancient story telling techniques, you will get a beautiful road map to the soul and what it means for us that you will never get nor understand from religion, which is what we are brainwashed with – not on purpose mind you, because when you are raised to believe a certain way long enough, you tend to accept cultural norms. Jesus actually compared someone steeped in religion to a Pharisee.
I once believed the Bible was literal. All of it. Until I had the conviction to trust what God gave me and see inconsistencies in a literal interpretation. I never mean to offend anyone, but if someone wants to stick with a literal interpretation only, then great! I say blessings and go for it. But in most instances this is only ego getting in the way, because it’s hard for people to accept that God and the universe are not as black and white as what a literal interpretation tells us. Trust me, God isn’t so simple, and neither is creation. But its a process to understand it’s not, and it takes time, study, and a willingness to accept that nothing is infallible, including our religious leaders who have told us this is what this means.
Finally, I am in no way correct on everything and am a student of the word just as you. I am only doing what God has innately and naturally given me a passion for. I have no agenda, and if you want to disagree with everything I ever say, again, great! I still respect your thoughts, opinions, and convictions. A man / woman must stand by them when the belief is strong enough or it will eat you up inside. Walked that road too, so I completely understand.
I wish you well my friend. Thanks again.
Josh
“First off, no, you don’t need me to interpret anything for you. In fact, it should be the goal of someone to learn how the BIble is written with metaphor so they can interpret all of it themselves”
If the Bible is all just one great big metaphor that each of us can interpret in our own meaningful way then logically the Bible has millions of interpretations and thereby becomes completely meaningless. So sin never came into the world. God therefore didn’t have to deal with it. Jesus wasn’t really needed and we all live happily ever after.
This means we are all our own God, just like the snake in the garden tried to convince us we could become. It’s the same lie all over again in a different package.
You never answered my question…if Adam and Eve weren’t real people, how did you get here on earth Joshua?
Second…I said nothing about going outside and talking to animals.
Thirdly…I hate religion also…it’s man’s feeble attempt to come into a relationship with God on his own terms…Jesus didn’t come to establish a religion…he came to establish a relationship with His creation, but he had to get the sin problem out of the way so that this could happen.
Joshua I could hit you with tons of scripture that totally destroys all the things you espouse as truth on this web site, but I’m sure you would have your own way of turning it all into a metaphor that totally changes its literal meaning. This is very dangerous and you are leading many others down a path to destruction and you will be held accountable.
By your teaching is it necessary for you to confess that you are a sinner and need Jesus’ sacrifice to pay the price for your sins so that you can come into a relationship with God? Or do you show some other way for the sin problem to be taken care of or that it is not a real problem after all since the original sin story is not literal?
Jack…
You stated: “If the Bible is all just one great big metaphor that each of us can interpret in our own meaningful way then logically the Bible has millions of interpretations and thereby becomes completely meaningless. So sin never came into the world. God therefore didn’t have to deal with it. Jesus wasn’t really needed and we all live happily ever after.”
So which of the many myriad interpretations (even under the umbrella of Christianity itself do you espouse? 🙂
And I never stated anything about sin and what has to be dealt with. You have chose to assume, and even though the Gnostics make a lot of great points, do you also assume that I think what has been historically said about them I agree with? Trust me, looking up Gnosticism on the internet will never give you a true understanding of what they were all about, which is based off of 1700 hundred year old interpretations of very cryptic writings, also interpreted from mostly religious scholars. However, new scholarly evidence has come to light in recent years that completely shatters former notions and interpretations of their writings. That being said, I still don’t espouse to a lot of what the many different sects under the umbrella of Gnosticism teaches.
To your other point in the above quote. Let me ask you, what is your definition of sin? Biblically, even within the confines of literalism, it simply means separation from God, or “missing the mark.” Of course man has missed the mark and has been “separated” from what you term God. An no, we don’t live life happily ever after. We each experience life and hardships to grow and learn. To think that man actually had a chance to live in a paradise without that is short-sighted, and would take away from our opportunity to discover the true meaning of live. In order to understand the message of Christ, which is love, is to suffer first, as man must always do. Proof:
“Even the son had to learn obedience THROUGH suffering (Hebrews).
Should we suppose that we are greater than the SON, who learned obedience through none other than suffering in a world of sin as you call it? To think otherwise would be silly, correct?
You also asked me:
If Adam and Eve weren’t literal how did I get here?
Jack…do you really want me to answer this? We might begin a long discussion about conscious evolution, which I really don’t think you would appreciate. But even if we did, you would have to explain how every race and nationality came about from a specific genetic code, unless you admitted that evolution was at least partially true (think about that one carefully).
Another piece of food for thought: why did God say “man has now become like one of us (a god!) to know the difference between good and evil?” And Jesus confirmed with the Pharisees, doesn’t it say in scripture, man is a God? (Again, think carefully).
Next, you stated: “Second…I said nothing about going outside and talking to animals.”
I am going to quote you below:
“In the story it talks about God making all the animals. When I look in nature, animals abound, they are real and not a metaphor.”
Of course you didn’t mention talking to animals. That would be silly. But you implied that because you can go outside and see them that the Bible must be literally accurate. So what I did was then say, well since the Bible literally says that an animal talked, it must be true! Is it? Of course not.
You also stated:
“Joshua I could hit you with tons of scripture that totally destroys all the things you espouse as truth on this web site, but I’m sure you would have your own way of turning it all into a metaphor that totally changes its literal meaning. This is very dangerous and you are leading many others down a path to destruction and you will be held accountable”
I’ll tell you what…I will not use metaphor. In all fairness I’ll even use an argument against you with literal interpretation, against literal interpretation. Not to be cocky, but just to show you circular reasoning will not work here, even within the realm of your own arguments, because the Bible cannot be literal. And because I care about you enough to challenge you on an important life decision, which I appreciate all who did for me before me. So…
I would like to get to the bottom of this, just as you would. I love it when liteteralist use logic, because it brings out an important point. More on that later.
For now…let’s skip all this the little talk and go to something greater. Question…
The book of Ezekiel. If we follow the literal interpretation, then the messiah comes back and the Jewish law stands. Blood sacrifices will flow again and the temple reinstated in the future, after messiah returns. Explain…
Josh
The book of Ezekiel. If we follow the literal interpretation, then the messiah comes back and the Jewish law stands. Blood sacrifices will flow again and the temple reinstated in the future, after messiah returns. Explain…
Give me the scripture reference please.
As usual, most want to know where this is in the Bible, which lets me know right away that they have not looked into their Bible deeply enough. Understandable, because the Bible is a HUGE reference. Nonetheless, a literal interpretation presents a huge issue, the following verses are only a small sample of the illogical reasoning according to literalist that try to unite the New and Old Testament into a viable framework: it’s so obviously contradictory. However, we will entertain it here…
Eze. Eze. 43:20, Eze. 43:26; Eze. 45:15, Eze. 45:17, Eze. 45:20), but also by four other prophets (Isa. Isa. 56:7; Isa. 66:20-23; Jer. Jer. 33:18; Zec. Zec. 14:16-21; Mal. Mal. 3:3-4).
There are a myriad of other issues, but we’ll use this as a good starting point, in all fairness 🙂 The really big issues are in the Old Testament alone, without even the reference of the New Testament, but we’ll save that for later, because most literalist haven’t even scratched the surface beyond scientific explanation. No, we’ll just stick to spiritual inconsistencies here, on a literalist’s own terms.
Also, for all readers, please understand that this really not to prove a point. It’s simply to make us all think! Which is what religion is based on anyways…thinking, opinions of men, etc. You’ll never arrive at the truth this way, because all man’s thinking and opinions is moot. This should also be obvious after our life experiences. The truth is beyond man’s opinions! Always.
Get ready readers for a regurgitation of commentary from the religious spiritual giants.
And Jack, no offence here, honestly, but I want readers to really consider this deeply…for all honesty…
Josh
Ok Josh, I just read all the scriptures you cited, but I fail to see a contradiction. I’m afraid you are going to have to spell it out for me.
Ok…I’ve studied this a little more and I think I see the point you are trying to make.
All the scriptures you listed are prophetic describing a reinstitution of the sacrificial system during the millennial reign of Jesus. This is the time period of 1000 years after his return to earth at the end of the tribulation period.
At first observation quite frankly it doesn’t make sense that God would do this because theologically it is unnecessary since Jesus has satisfied the requirement of the shedding of blood to pay the price of our sins by being the “lamb of God”.
So why would God do this when it is no longer necessary?
I have no explanation. I could speculate, but that’s all it would be. The reason for this action is not given.
I have learned that sometimes we just as well let God be God. He thinks he is God anyway. He can do as He wishes. I know that when I’m there at that future event, I will understand fully.
Romans 11:33-34
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?”
There are things in the Bible that we absolutely will not fully understand until it comes to pass…take the book of Revelation. There is a full description of what is going to take place but no one, I mean no one, fully understands what it will be. Many teach on the subject, eschatology, study of the end times, but no one fully knows how it will play out But we will know eventually.
So for me, I accept it, because God can do as He wishes and I don’t have to understand it, for now anyway.
This discussion you raised about the institution of the sacrificial system in the millennial reign of Jesus is just muddying up the waters.
Please answer me straight forwardly. If Adam and Eve were not REAL people, how did you get here as well as the rest of mankind?
Quit dodging the question please.
Thanks
I never dodge. Thank you for your honest response about sacrifices and Jesus. You admitted you had no explanation, and that you just had faith and accepted it. Fair enough, but for me, I found it important enough to look into it more, and then it made sense to me.
About how we got here. Every molecule in your body and element is possible from a supernova. Star explosions literally create all the elements you see in the universe. Over many eons, this solar system formed, and then earth eventually had the right ingredients to support life.
I believe in consciousness evolution, as God is the ultimate and primoridial consciousness that everything evolved from.
As God told Moses when Moses asked for his name…
“I am that I AM.”
Meaning in Hebrew, “I will become that which I become.”
Yes, all the elements for life are here in the universe…God put them there as part of His creation process. But just stating that the elements are here still does not answer the question specifically how man got here.
You state that Adam and Eve were not real people so there must be another process in your created world whereby man came into existence. So could you please give your explanation.
“Consciousness evolution” does not seem to be flesh and bone, so how did your flesh and bone get here Joshua?
Thanks.
Hmmmm….2 days and still no explanation.
Kind of tough to explain how you came to be Joshua when you tell me that Adam and Eve weren’t real people and its all just a metaphor. When you throw out Adam and Eve you do away with all creation. The plants, animals, fish, insects, earth, planets, moons, stars, galaxies and the universe disappears. Only problem is that all that stuff is here…I can touch it, see it, feel it, taste it, and hear it.
You can come up with a high minded pseudo intellectual metaphorical description of creation but every time you walk into the bathroom and look into the mirror and see your face starring back at you, your whole farcical creation story comes crashing down like a house of cards.
Man I hope you come to the truth….just think about it…
The whole tree/fruit temptation situation is intentionally there to initiate self-awareness. The first symptoms of this is self-consciousness…before we are able to utilize self-awareness as a tool for growth. Their state began like a child’s — just being. Then followed the teenage rebellion. Followed by self-consciousness. As we age we go back to “just being” but with “self-awareness”
You got it. But it’s not an aspect of seeming not to make sense, according to a literal interpretation of the New Testament, it doesn’t make sense. You have to admit that according to Ezekiel and other scriptures, blood sacrifices are not done away with. Reconciliation is impossible and there is a disconnect in the scriptures…that is, unless you understand the true reasoning behind the metaphor.
“You also asked me:
If Adam and Eve weren’t literal how did I get here?
Jack…do you really want me to answer this? We might begin a long discussion about conscious evolution, which I really don’t think you would appreciate. But even if we did, you would have to explain how every race and nationality came about from a specific genetic code, unless you admitted that evolution was at least partially true (think about that one carefully).”
Yes Joshua, answer my question. If Adam and Eve were not literal people, how did you get here. Are you a real person?
I don’t want to hear anything about “conscious evolution”. Just answer the basic question please.
“First off, no, you don’t need me to interpret anything for you. In fact, it should be the goal of someone to learn how the BIble is written with metaphor so they can interpret all of it themselves”
If the Bible is all just one great big metaphor that each of us can interpret in our own meaningful way then logically the Bible has millions of interpretations and thereby becomes completely meaningless. So sin never came into the world. God therefore didn’t have to deal with it. Jesus wasn’t really needed and we all live happily ever after.
This means we are all our own God, just like the snake in the garden tried to convince us we could become. It’s the same lie all over again in a different package.
You never answered my question…if Adam and Eve weren’t real people, how did you get here on earth Joshua?
Second…I said nothing about going outside and talking to animals.
Thirdly…I hate religion also…it’s man’s feeble attempt to come into a relationship with God on his own terms…Jesus didn’t come to establish a religion…he came to establish a relationship with His creation, but he had to get the sin problem out of the way so that this could happen.
Joshua I could hit you with tons of scripture that totally destroys all the things you espouse as truth on this web site, but I’m sure you would have your own way of turning it all into a metaphor that totally changes its literal meaning. This is very dangerous and you are leading many others down a path to destruction and you will be held accountable.
By your teaching is it necessary for you to confess that you are a sinner and need Jesus’ sacrifice to pay the price for your sins so that you can come into a relationship with God? Or do you show some other way for the sin problem to be taken care of or that it is not a real problem after all since the original sin story is not literal?
For anyone who wants to know what Joshua is teaching here just go look u Gnosticism.
Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises. First, it espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.
Second, Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.
To discredit the idea of any compatibility between Christianity and Gnosticism, one has only to compare their teachings on the main doctrines of the faith. On the matter of salvation, Gnosticism teaches that salvation is gained through the acquisition of divine knowledge which frees one from the illusions of darkness. Although they claim to follow Jesus Christ and His original teachings, Gnostics contradict Him at every turn. Jesus said nothing about salvation through knowledge, but by faith in Him as Savior from sin. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Furthermore, the salvation Christ offers is free and available to everyone (John 3:16), not just a select few who have acquired a special revelation.
Christianity asserts that there is one source of Truth and that is the Bible, the inspired, inerrant Word of the living God, the only infallible rule of faith and practice (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Hebrews 4:12). It is God’s written revelation to mankind and is never superseded by man’s thoughts, ideas, writings, or visions. The Gnostics, on the other hand, use a variety of early heretical writings known as the Gnostic gospels, a collection of forgeries claiming to be “lost books of the Bible.” Thankfully, the early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognizing these Gnostic scrolls as fraudulent forgeries that espouse false doctrines about Jesus Christ, salvation, God, and every other crucial Christian truth. There are countless contradictions between the Gnostic “gospels” and the Bible. Even when the so-called Christian Gnostics quote from the Bible, they rewrite verses and parts of verses to harmonize with their philosophy, a practice that is strictly forbidden and warned against by Scripture (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32; Proverbs 30:6; Revelation 22:18-19).
The Person of Jesus Christ is another area where Christianity and Gnosticism drastically differ. The Gnostics believe that Jesus’ physical body was not real, but only “seemed” to be physical, and that His spirit descended upon Him at His baptism, but left Him just before His crucifixion. Such views destroy not only the true humanity of Jesus, but also the atonement, for Jesus must not only have been truly God, but also the truly human (and physically real) man who actually suffered and died upon the cross in order to be the acceptable substitutionary sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 2:14-17). The biblical view of Jesus affirms His complete humanity as well as His full deity.
Gnosticism is based on a mystical, intuitive, subjective, inward, emotional approach to truth which is not new at all. It is very old, going back in some form to the Garden of Eden, where Satan questioned God and the words He spoke and convinced Adam and Eve to reject them and accept a lie. He does the same thing today as he “prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8). He still calls God and the Bible into question and catches in his web those who are either naïve and scripturally uninformed or who are seeking some personal revelation to make them feel special, unique, and superior to others. Let us follow the Apostle Paul who said to “test everything. Hold on to the good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), and this we do by comparing everything to the Word of God, the only Truth.
Ah, but Jack. You’re being quite unfair here (see replies above). But in the spirit of trying to be fair, on YOUR terms, (and assuming logic as you want to bring in) let’s assume the Bible is all literal. Based on that assumption, you’re going to have to explain the book of Ezekiel first. Why is Jewish practice and blood sacrifice reinstated in a future event? Explain that, logically, based on the New Testament, and you’ll have my attention. It is explained perfectly metaphorically, but if you can do it literally based on the New Testament, then we have a real starting point.
Again, and as stated above, if Jesus had to learn obedience through suffering, then how do you suppose we, as son’s of God lower than Jesus had to do any different. In other words, if he set the precedent, then why did God set us up in a paradise where that wasn’t necessary? Think about this…If God himself had to learn obedience through suffering (a world outside the garden of eden), why must’n we?
Thanks…
Josh
Gosticism believed in an experience of relationship, not on man’s doctrine. Paul’s writings are what we would term Gnostic in this sense today.
Joshua, you seem like a nice well intentioned sincere young man. The problem is you are sincerely wrong, not just in this article, but in everything that you have posted on your web site.
You have taken the Bible and given it your personal interpretation and made God’s word of no effect. You have created a god of your own understanding; a god created by one’s self is a false god and as the Bible would define it, an idol. Hence, everything written here on your web site is idolatry.
I could speak volumes on each of your articles, point by point and show their total lack of truth. There is no truth here to be found.
It is my hope and prayer that you will not lead many others down the path you are walking as it will end in their destruction, as well as your’s. I also hope that you will find the real truth.
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man can come to the Father except through me”. There are only three ways to look at this…Jesus is nuts, He is a liar, or He is telling the truth. If He is nuts or a liar, hey we’re all okay…all ways lead to heaven. But if He is telling the truth, then logically, everything else is not the way; everything else is a lie, and everything else leads to death. That’s why your construct here is a false religion, as much as all the others in this world.
God bless you young man. I hope you come to the real truth.
Hey Jack! Thanks for the healthy discussion. Sorry for the late reply, just busy with work. But I just read over this and had a few thoughts for you.
I always respect someone when they are sincere and not out to just criticize someone. I can see that you have a strong conviction for traditional Christian belief, and I respect that. As I said, you need to follow those convictions, because when you are sure of what you believe, that is the path you need to take until you are confronted with something that shows you otherwise.
I do think you misunderstand me on one thing though, Jack. You state how can I look in the mirror and deny this physical existence, or that we are all here, including the earth and the animals, everything, etc. I am not denying that. What I am denying is that the Bible was written as a literal, historical truth to why and how we are here. It should be obvious that this is not the case. Genesis states that on the first few days, from morning to evening, things were created, and yet the stars ( including our sun) was not created until well after the first morning and evening. Let me ask you something Jack: Our sun, a star, determines our morning and evening, in conjunction with the rotation of the earth. So how could the first or second day be a morning and evening if our sun wasn’t created yet, according to Genesis? Obviously it’s not literal here. There are hundreds of other examples.
The allegory told in Genesis and other portions of the Bible are, and the lessons it shows us, are diminished through a literal interpretation, which is simply an intellectual exercise of the mind, which God does not accept. It’s about experiencing God, on a personal relationship level, not a belief system. All doctrine and dogma will get you nowhere with God, and interpreting the Bible literally is simply doctrine and dogma.
God is much bigger than that, and so is the reason for our existence.
Thanks again for the conversations. I wish you well too, and just as you have wished me, I pray that you come to a greater truth as well. The symbols, when interpreted correctly, will give you more truth about God and yourself than you could even imagine, as well as a peace that passes all understanding (head knowledge and intellect).
Blessings.
Josh
“Genesis states that on the first few days, from morning to evening, things were created, and yet the stars ( including our sun) was not created until well after the first morning and evening. Let me ask you something Jack: Our sun, a star, determines our morning and evening, in conjunction with the rotation of the earth. So how could the first or second day be a morning and evening if our sun wasn’t created yet, according to Genesis?”
The answer is in Gen 1:3
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, THE FIRST DAY.
“Jack. You state how can I look in the mirror and deny this physical existence, or that we are all here, including the earth and the animals, everything, etc. I am not denying that. What I am denying is that the Bible was written as a literal, historical truth to why and how we are here.”
So how did we get here Josh? You have still not answered this question.
Okay Jack. It is obvious we can agree to disagree from here. You’ve already admitted that you have no answer for Ezekiel, and the same is true for Genesis. You have completely ignored the fact that a literal interpretation can’t be true based on the text itself, so what point is there of going any further. As always, I respect your belief but feel you are in denial of the evidence presented clearly before you. You came to me and asked how can I look in the mirror and deny that I exist, and I returned with showing you that even the Bible itself makes no sense arguing that way because according to what is right in front of you as evidence, the sun and rotation of the earth, Genesis chapter one cannot be literal. You have side-stepped the issue because you have no explanation. i was surprised that you didn’t even return with the gap theory, or the scripture that a thousand days is as one day to the Lord, which was probably good, because I would have taken you down the rabbit hole further.
Please don’t forget that I also once believed like you. It’s going to lead you nowhere unless you base all on faith of a literal, dogmatic and doctrinal interpretation, which I can respect should you choose to hold that.
But to ask me how can I not believe based on looking in the mirror will not work, nor is it logical. So you have to admit, that based on faith, my point is valid as is yours.
Blessings…
Josh
And once again you will not say how you came into existance.
I could walk you through Genesis step by step and explain it in depth, and it would be very scientific.and make a very coherent presentation. It would not be that the universe was created 6000 years ago, but I’m afraid it would be a waste of my time.
If you are truly seeking about the truth of creation and your mind is not made up…Go to http://www.reasonstobelieve.com. There is much to be learned there.
Blessings to you also.
Jack
Thanks Jack. I did explain it through a process called conscious evolution, but I know that is quite vague and would take some time to explain, but it does include biological evolution, only that that is one way consciousness evolves. I believe consciousness creates matter, and as Plato said, what’s behind the matter is the more real.
I appreciate your stance on going through Genesis showing creation which does not follow a 7000 year stance. In fact, I am probably well versed in it. I use to consider the gap theory as put forth by Dake and others, when I was still what one might term a “traditional Christian” today.
But again take care and thanks for the convos.
For starters I’m not talking about Dake’s gap theory. The creation days were not 24 hour days; they were fixed periods of time. In Hebrew the word for day is “yom”. It can mean a 24 hour day or a fixed period of time. For example, it I told you that in my grandfather’s day he drove a Model T Ford and 20 pounds of potatoes sold for a nickel. Is that day a 24 hour day? No and yom can be used in the same way.
So your position for creation is some form of evolution. Well any real honest scientific investigation into evolution quickly proves that it is a farce also. I could speak volumes to this.
Young man here is your main problem:
Gal 1:8-9
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
If you really desire to see deeper meaning to scriptures here are a couple of examples you can look at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUs8f-lphec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmnUkNT55gU
And to revisit our discussion about the OT prophets and the reinstitution of the sacrificial system.
I had a discussion with a Jewish Christian minister friend of mine last night about this. There are many things in the Bible we as Gentiles do not fully understand because much of what we have been taught has a Greek mindset and quite frankly is wrong and we could have another long discussion about this.
As it turns out it is quite simple; the sacrifices done during the millennial reign of Christ are offerings to honor and thank God for what he has done and have nothing to do with forgiveness of sins. It is clear from scripture that the blood of animals never satisfied for the forgiveness of sins to begin with, only Jesus’ blood could do that.
Heb 10:1-4
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
So there is no conflict in this area after all.
Thanks
Jack
Putting higher knowledge into words that are universal and words that can be carried through generations and cultures is exactly why parts of the Bible are metaphorical. Imagine explaining higher knowledge to people who have never been exposed to even basic truths. It’s similar to when you explain how babies are made to a child. Gotta use some metaphors to help them grasp what they don’t know
Agree.
Literal reading goes no where
Thank you for this perspective. The Bible should be taken literally AND metaphorically. Once you dissect all the layers—allegory, history, science, math, astrology (and possibly more still undiscovered)—and realize they are all true, that is the moment you will fall on your knees; truly humbled and eternally grateful.
The overarching lesson to be gleaned from the Garden story… Ignorance is bliss.
The God character demanded ignorance; it was the ‘adversary’ who tough Adam and Eve of right and wrong; of morality and shame.
Nowadays, when a Christian gets confronted with new information that’s unflattering or inconvenient, they zealously ignore it.
It’s all about the bliss.
Man never fell. It’s the God/unity cycle. God is everything and nothing simultaneously. At the start of the cycle/Big Bang, God essentially separates into everything (light/energy/matter) and nothing (darkness/anti-energy/space) and then branches out into a spectrum of different combinations of space and matter. Eventually, collective consciousness will continue to rise to a god-like state where we experience spiritual growth more and more rapidly until we get to a point of unity where we experience being everything. And then we experience nothing. And then the simultaneous state…before starting the cycle over again.
A very astute comment, Mongo. Thank you.
I was just explaining today how God is both “Nothing” and “Everything” in a personal email. As everything, it would be a no “thing” to human consciousness, essentially an negative abstraction. It is neither consciousness nor unconsciousness, and such a state is beyond what spirit and matter are as duality, and what that is, we can’t even speculate, except in very broad terms which can only be sensed or felt intuitively, and vaguely expressed through limited language.
“ Thus the tempting of Eve by the serpent was a logical progression of the story in Genesis, not a turn of events where man disobeyed God. It’s symbolic of the necessity for mankind to evolve spiritually through the physical plane where the soul manifests an ego through the mental, emotional, and physical nature.”
Why would it be logical for mankind to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of g&e? Doesn’t this take them out of Eden? This is where I’m getting stumped. You say that the Fall of Man is in essence the fall of the soul into physical manifestation. But wasn’t the soul already physically manifested? Don’t all entities (pre ego man, eg) have souls & are conscious (possess the Holy Spirit? Or is that not how you look at it) to some extent? Furthermore, why did the eating of this fruit have to lead to disconnection from the tree of life/discommunion with God? Ie why couldn’t we be conscious knowers – *and* in communion with God/connected to the Tree of Life? (I realize this is now the destiny, but I don’t understand why duality/the ego prenecessitate this paradigm. Is it some kind of subjective state where we *didn’t want* want to be part of the ToL- with the other side of the coin being a desire for free will, perhaps; if so why must these two be mutually exclusive at first?)
Ie you mention consciousness now outwardly manifesting — what was it doing pre ego in humans?
Edit: very helpful article; which frankly adds a connotation lacking from this original article (even if it takes things a little too literally) — https://knowingscripture.com/articles/what-was-the-tree-of-the-knowledge-of-good-and-evil-for#1. Because in fact i think your take is a little too life draining from the subjective reality of the situation…
Another view about the Garden, A and E , sin, fall etc
Bible describes it was the disobedience that caused A and E. to sin. Just eating a forbidden fruit ?
There is more to it. The fruit looked great and was pleasing.. of course the tempter was right there to encourage them, it was temptation aka instant gratification. Read the marshmallow test done in US in the 60s. A and E didn’t bother to ask God to explain either. Neuroscience tells us this is the function of lower brain or limbic system or the emotional part of brain, something we humans share with animals. The tree of knowledge of good and evil is about our upper contemplative, thinking and responsive brain. You think all knowing God did not know they would eat? Of course he knew, it was a drama. Who wants to remain as robots in the Garden for ever?